Well worth a listen (or 5 listens).  Al Ratcliffe

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/outsiders/id1491224873?mt=2&app=podcast&fbclid=IwAR0qguoVy1Grd3Bc1SokUq5o5acXGm5ymctvvORLFVZkVEX5SLZEltgq6_k